Wikipedia talk:Featured list criteria
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| 1 (fair-use images, overhaul of criteria) |
[edit] Alt text
discussion moved from WT:FLC
Per this discussion at FAC, I think we should encourage/require nominators to integrate alt text when possible. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- As you are now opposing based on this, I guess you are suggesting we change the criteria to mandate the use of alt text, rather than leave it to individuals to decide when is appropriate. Could you confirm you wish to change the criteria? The Rambling Man (talk) 07:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- I wanted to let you know that I added some comments to the above discussion like should we give a grace period before delisted articles/lists based on this new requirment. --Kumioko (talk) 14:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- That requirement seems to have already been added to the FA criteria. Jafeluv (talk) 21:38, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Yep it was added today--Kumioko (talk) 22:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Hold your horses, who said anything about grace periods and delistings? We don't have to mass-remove FL stars just because of lack of alt text. Just like there are still FAs without or seriously lacking inline citations, and FLs whose leads still start with "This is a list of" or some other varying form of non-engaging prose, we should address these issues as we see them and not cause a huge ruckus over this. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- I think that the moment you started to oppose based on missing alt text, you set the scene for delisting FLs because they don't have alt text. In other words, you would have voted oppose on a huge number of lists that didn't have alt text where you considered it required per 5b. I don't believe listing lists for FLRC which start "This is a list" or without alt text is causing a ruckus. It should be used to improve existing lists up to current standards. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Doesn't WP:FL? already call for Alt text? Matthewedwards : Chat 17:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- So it seems. Apparently, since November 2006. Jafeluv (talk) 17:49, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- I think it says, rather nebulously, "where required" or similar. We need to get a handle on "where required" means. Dabomb87 showed me some really informative images of my lists when images were disabled, which helps us folks who take images without captions (for instance) for granted. I reckon it's worth a discussion. And even if WP:FL? said we needed it, how many times has it been brought up in the past few years Matthew?! I think we've been missing a trick. Hence the requirement to go back and look at FLs that don't meet 5b. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- According to WP:ALT, "[e]very visible image should have alt text, unless the image is used only for visual formatting or decoration." Dabomb87 (talk) 17:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- So 5b perhaps ought to explicitly state that the "where required" is "per MOS" or similar? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:58, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- And perhaps we could get a definition of what "for ... decoration" means. After all, I thought images were supposed to be pertinent and informative, not just decorative...! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:01, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- I've asked Tony1 (talk · contribs) to take a look. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Good start. So our 5b says "It has images and other media, if appropriate to the topic, that follow Wikipedia's usage policies, with succinct captions and "alt" text if necessary" - we need to be much tighter on "if necessary" if our regulars are going to oppose list promotion based on "missing alt text". Don't get me wrong, it's a fair viewpoint, but it's a sudden and dramatic change (which we've probably all been overlooking) and perhaps we should point directly to the MOS instead of interpreting it ourselves for the criteria. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:05, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- I've asked Tony1 (talk · contribs) to take a look. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- According to WP:ALT, "[e]very visible image should have alt text, unless the image is used only for visual formatting or decoration." Dabomb87 (talk) 17:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- I think it says, rather nebulously, "where required" or similar. We need to get a handle on "where required" means. Dabomb87 showed me some really informative images of my lists when images were disabled, which helps us folks who take images without captions (for instance) for granted. I reckon it's worth a discussion. And even if WP:FL? said we needed it, how many times has it been brought up in the past few years Matthew?! I think we've been missing a trick. Hence the requirement to go back and look at FLs that don't meet 5b. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- So it seems. Apparently, since November 2006. Jafeluv (talk) 17:49, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Doesn't WP:FL? already call for Alt text? Matthewedwards : Chat 17:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- I think that the moment you started to oppose based on missing alt text, you set the scene for delisting FLs because they don't have alt text. In other words, you would have voted oppose on a huge number of lists that didn't have alt text where you considered it required per 5b. I don't believe listing lists for FLRC which start "This is a list" or without alt text is causing a ruckus. It should be used to improve existing lists up to current standards. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Hold your horses, who said anything about grace periods and delistings? We don't have to mass-remove FL stars just because of lack of alt text. Just like there are still FAs without or seriously lacking inline citations, and FLs whose leads still start with "This is a list of" or some other varying form of non-engaging prose, we should address these issues as we see them and not cause a huge ruckus over this. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I boldly changed the criteria on the 24th June to make Alt text mandatory rather than the previous text which implied it was an alternative to including a caption. This was then weakened on the grounds that the WP:ALT guideline had exceptions. Since then, those exceptions have largely been removed from the guideline. Colin°Talk 19:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
