Talk:Tianxia

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This page has been created, totally or partially, as a translation of the original page « 天下 » from the Chinese Wikipedia. Please consult the history of the original page to see a list of its authors.

Contents 1 Pure nonsense 2 Article needs a lot of work 3 Japanese invasion of China 4 Start of Translation Work

[edit] Pure nonsense

Why did we devote 75% of the article to the film? Tianxia is one of the most common phrases in Chinese - nearly every ancient Chinese source you see has a very broad reference or a whole chapter devoted to it - Lunyu, Daxue, Zhuangzi, etc. Tianxia is the subject of some of the most common Chinese proverbs and phrases: 天下无难事, 天下第一, 天下大事, 天下为公, 三分天下 of Zhuge Liang, 天下布武 of Nobunaga Oda, 治国平天下 of Confucius, to name a few. Tianxia, "Under heaven", has the same usage as "World". Having 75% of the article about a mere film is like having 75% of the article describing the Globe Theatre in the article World. I have removed large chunks of pathetic nonsense and irrelevant or POV claims from the article. Now let's put some real info in the article. Aran|heru|nar 12:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I suggest excerpting information from the Chinese Wikipedia. The Chinese article about Tianxia is very detailed and covers the belief of Tianxia from both China and surrounding countries like Japan, Korea and Vietnam. Aran|heru|nar 10:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Lots of translation work needs to be done from the Chinese version of the article. Is there a tag we can stick at the top of the article that requests help to translate content from other language versions of the article? If not, I can create one. There are a lot of Chinese articles with content that could be translated into their English counterparts. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I found this - Template:Translation request, but it looks like the tag is used when you want to list an article under Wikipedia:Translation into English so that the usual WP bureaucratic procedures can take place. I was just thinking of something simpler, something similar to Template:expand. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 04:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs a lot of work

I gotta say, this article is really kind of crappy when you compare it to the Chinese version. If I can muster up the time, maybe I'll do some translation work. But I do urge any other editors who can translate Chinese to English to also contribute if they have the time. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 23:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese invasion of China

The Japanese Wikipedia defines 天下統一 'unification of all under heaven' as follows:

天下統一（てんかとういつ/てんがとういつ）は、主に日本の戦国時代から江戸時代初期にかけて、日本全土（琉球と蝦夷地の大半を除く）を、自らの支配下に置き日本全土を統一する事を指す。

Rough translation: Tenka tōitsu, mainly from the Sengoku period to the early years of the Edo period, referred to the placing of the whole of Japan (excluding Ryuku and Ezo) under one's control and uniting the whole of Japan.

However, there is a historical dimension to this:

「天下」の本来の意味では、その支配地域に境界はなく、秀吉は1590年に日本を統一すると、92年からは対明出兵(文禄・慶長の役)を実行する。秀吉の朝鮮出兵は失敗に終わり、徳川将軍家が支配する江戸時代になると、「天下」は日本列島に限る意味で用いられた。

Rough translation: In the original meaning of tenka, there were no boundaries to the area of control. Having unified Japan in 1590, Hideyoshi in 1592 sent troops against the Ming (Bunroku and Keicho campaigns). Hideyoshi's campaign against Korea failed and in the Edo period under the control of Tokugawa Ieyasu, the use of 'tenka' was confined to the Japanese islands.

Roadrunner added the words 'and their ultimate goal was to invade the Asian mainland and become Emperor of China'. This is a broad-brush statement and puts a very particular slant on the Japanese and the goals of Hideyoshi and Tokugawa. Before adding such provocative statements, it would be useful to ensure that the entire picture is being conveyed. (For instance, try translating the entire section on 天下 in Japan from the Chinese Wikipedia).

Bathrobe 03:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Start of Translation Work

I've written a first draft of the first two paragraphs. I've gone for a fairly literal translation, so it would be a good idea to edit this some before incorporating it into the article: - The expression "天下" as a term for the world was first used by the Han people of China. Later, the idea spread to other parts of East Asia. The idea deeply influenced the history of East Asia and the peoples of East Asia. The expression's basic meaning is "(all) under the common sky" (普天之下). However, the meaning is not just a concept of geography or space. It is also used to describe a particular kind of geographical location. The concept of "all under heaven" is determined by the worldview of a particular region, people, or nation. The idea should be considered to reflect a particular region's or people's worldview. Index: 1 The Idea 1.1 China 1.2 Japan 1.3 Korea 1.4 Vietnam 1.5 Mongolia and pastoral-nomadic people of Asia 2 Historical Evolution 1.1 China 1.2 Japan 1.3 Korea 1.4 Vietnam 1.5 Mongolia and pastoral-nomadic people of Asia 3 Further Reading 4 Notes 5 References

The Idea China In China, "all under heaven" indicates all that was ruled by the Chinese emperor. It was the theory of rule of that particular area. This area under control of the Chinese court was called Xia (夏), Hua (華), Zhongxia (中夏), Zhonghua (中華), Zhongguo (中國), and other names. This was distinguished from the surrounding "four sides" and the Yi (夷 "the barbarians".) However, if regions were put under Chinese imperial rule, then they would also be called part of "all under heaven". (See also: Sinocentrism, Chinese Imperialism, Tian). - I'm not sure of the correct translation for 秩序原理. It must mean something like "orderly theory" or perhaps "determined by", but I'm not sure. Linguixperiments (talk) 01:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC) I've started cleaning up this translation. Linguixperiments (talk) 01:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

It would be very helpful if someone who knows Japanese could translate some terms: 江田船山古墳 鐵劍 Likewise, there are terms in the Vietnamese and Korean sections of the Chinese article which I don't know how to translate. Linguixperiments (talk) 03:02, 20 March 2009 (UTC)